Gutierrez in the Box

by ~ December 13th, 2008 at 8:53 pm

The 12 player trade that went down on Wednesday evening is an amazing thing to me, in that most of the savvy fans feel like their teams made a decent trade.  Obviously things can change once the games are played, but for now most Mariner fans are excited to have a legitimate center field defender, added farm depth, as well as a couple other role players that could prove valuable.  The Mets fans feel like they were able to overhaul their bullpen without giving up anything they’ll particularly miss.  The Indians fans are happy because they were able to solidify their bullpen, improve their second base depth, and clear a spot in the outfield so that Shin-Soo Choo and Ben Francisco can play full time.  Obviously, there are those that disagree, but generally everyone is happy.

Perhaps this is how most trades work, but I’ve simply been on the wrong end of Bill Bavasi and Woody Woodward trades.

I am excited for the acquisition of Gutierrez, and I can’t wait to see him out on the field in 2009.  I’ve already mentioned how great his defense is, citing various defensive metrics to describe how amazing he is and how he’s going to be Seattle best defensive outfielder since Mike Cameron left us, but I think Jeff Sullivan at Lookout Landing summed it best:

he’s one of the best defensive outfielders on the planet. PMR likes him. UZR loves him. Plus/minus had sex with him on Adam Everett’s coffee table. Franklin Gutierrez has played 284 games in the Major Leagues, and in pretty much every single one of them he has provided extraordinary defense.

(If you don’t get the Everett reference, see here)

Gutierrez is going to be great in center field.  He’ll be such an asset that even if he shows zero improvement at the plate he’ll still be one of the more valuable position players that we have.  However, if he can start hitting a bit more then he’ll become the Adrian Beltre of the outfield, minus the paycheck.

After being called a breakout candidate by many last Spring Training, Gutierrez struggled mightily, batting just .210 and sporting an embarrassing .586 OPS at the trading deadline.   Undoubtedly motivated by the strong performances by Francisco and Choo, and the possibility of losing additional playing time, Gutierrez turned it up a notch from then until the end of the season, hitting a solid .313/.389/.476 including half his home runs and doubles over his final 47 games.

Over the same span, the only Mariner to outperform Gutierrez offensively was Raul Ibanez, who was on an absolute tear down the stretch.  That said, Ibanez can’t exactly claim to have the defensive impact that Gutierrez has.  It’s feasible that from August 1st until the end of the season Gutierrez was more valuable than any Seattle Mariners position player.  Cases can be made for Ibanez and Beltre, but it’s still saying something about the finish that Gutierrez had.

If that last third of the season was any indication of what kind of offensive upside Gutierrez is storing, Seattle may gotten the best player in the deal by a large margin. Even if he hits closer to his more realistic 2008 ZIPs projection of .268/.332/.422, he’s still an above average center fielder on both sides of the ball.

The important thing to remember is that Gutierrez isn’t just a defensive wizard.  People look at his 2008 line of .248/.307/.383 and think he’s an all-defense, no-offense player, but those overall numbers were destroyed by the tough start.  He hit just .210/.257/.329 over his first 87 games.  There’s no way that this guy is that bad.  He was heralded as a potential 5-tool player as a prospect.  So far, only the defensive tools have consistently shown themselves at the MLB level, but you should remember that he hasn’t yet entered into his physical prime, nor has he been given the opportunity to log a full season’s worth of plate appearances.  He topped out at 319 last season, but should head up to the plate almost twice as many times in 2009.  I’ve talked to some Cleveland Indians bloggers and fans and most believe that Gutierrez can explode if he gets consistent playing time and his natural defensive position back.  That’s exactly what Seattle is going to do for him.

While he struggled in 2008 compared to 2006 and 2007, there are reasons to believe that he’s on the verge of breaking out.  This past season he started evening up his lefty/righty splits, he brought his strikeout percentage way down, bumped his line drive percentage up a bit, became more selective at the plate and made better contact when he swung.  He is improving aspects of his game, and if he puts them all together it could be a beautiful sight.

For 2009, Bill James projects a .271/.329/.428 line for Gutierrez over 398 plate appearances, Marcel has him at .264/.321/.414 over 450, and ZIPs predicts .258/.321/.400 over 411.

I think that Gutierrez will smoke the ZIPs projection, and at very least fall somewhere between Bill James and Marcel, assuming he plays everyday, registering between 550 and 600 plate appearances.  He could do a lot more.  Last season he could have hit 15 homers despite his struggles had he gotten regular playing time.  He can be a 20 homer threat as early as next year.

Not very many people are talking about this guys offense, but I think we’re going to have a very special player reveal himself over the next couple seasons.


  • http://myspace.com/tr1ckz pmbaseball7

    I’m excited now more than ever to see what he can do this year+. Thanks.

  • http://myspace.com/tr1ckz pmbaseball7

    Jon,
    What do think about picking up Juan Rivera to play DH or LF?

  • http://bleedingblueandteal.com Jon Shields

    ^Wouldn’t be the worse thing in the world, but Seattle could really use some plate discipline in the lineup. As it stands now, Russell Branyan is the only Mariner likely to take walks at an above average clip. Rivera walks about 5-6% of the time. The average hitter walks about 8% of the time.

    I’m not sure what Zduriencik is going to do to add some more punch to the lineup, but I’m fairly certain that he’s not even close to being done this offseason. Hopefully he can find some pop that can also get on base. If not, Rivera is a good, cheap fallback.

  • http://myspace.com/tr1ckz pmbaseball7

    Thanks. And is Bobby Abreu an option still? What do you think his asking price would be and for how many years?

  • http://bleedingblueandteal.com Jon Shields

    Bobby Abreu was a perfect fit for us the last time he was a free agent, and is still a pretty good fit now. He’d be the only legitimate #3 or 4 hitter we have in our lineup.

    Abreu is pretty awful in the field as well, but could be a DH candidate or we could just live with his defense.

    I’m not sure how much he’ll command. I think he’ll get something similar to Raul, $10M per season at 2-3 years. Maybe $11M.. hard to say. Depends on what other DH-types go off the board first.

  • chris d

    Concerning Abreu or any other free agent, I don’t believe we should pick up ANY of these including A Dunn. Yes, they would add some pop and OBP but they would keep others from playing/developing and add pay roll.Vlad B, Clement, and other maybe even Carp should be getting OF and DH experience. It does not matter if we win this season.

    I also think we should jettison Beltre (if Z thinks he will not resign) and Bedard (once we see that he is performing). No Thanks to any high priced veterans and current vets who will not be part of picture in 2010. I was sickened last year every time a M’s manager sent out Vidro, Sexson, or any of the other vets who were going to be gone soon. What was the purpose? Just like there is no reasonable reason to bring in these FA.

  • Slurve

    Guti is a 5 tooler if his offense was to develop…

  • http://bleedingblueandteal.com Jon Shields

    @ chris d – I would be fine with that as well. If we were to keep the moves to a minimum (still need to move a starter), we’d have a setup something like:

    C: Kenji
    1B: Branyan
    2B: Lopez
    3B: Beltre
    SS: Yu-Bet
    LF: Wlad/Chavez
    CF: Gutz
    RF: Ichiro
    DH: Clement

    I could live with that. It’s a pretty fair lineup if Clement, Gutierrez and Wlad are able to take significant steps forward, as well.

    That said (and I was writing a post about this in more detail, but haven’t bothered finishing it), Seattle could watch the market and find themselves in a situation where they could sign one of the many 1B/DH/LF types available to a cheap 1-year deal, because they no longer have multiple suitors driving up the price. It’s thought that that is what the Rays are doing.

    Sure, it could work out so that there is no one left, but everything has to fall the right way for certain teams for that to happen. And if that happens, we go young. But if we can get one of these guys at a bargain on a 1-2 year deal, it’ll be fun to have a decent team out there in a weak AL West.

    Regarding Beltre, I used to want him to be traded, but I’ve had a change of heart. At this point I think he should be kept. If he is kept and the SS defense can be improved somehow, Seattle has a really good chance at upping the trade value of the Washburns and Silvas on the staff, and that is important right now. The addition of Gutz is already going to help a lot.

  • chris d

    I agree Jon- that the D upgrades so far have beeen what made that trade so significant. That alone will improve pitching. I think they should move YB especially if he looks like he is not in any better shape than last year and the same for Lopez. These two need to get in shape and stay or else bench them.

    And with Brewers desperate for pitching, I think we should move B Marrow as he has not really proven he can be a SP. Or maybe even Bedard. We should get one of their top pitching prospects and JJ Hardy and another ML ready player.

    But Dr Z still has some trading to do and isn’t it wonderful to trust him and know he will not get taken or swindled. I wish we had had Dr Z when the Bedard trade was made (or not).

    I think you might be right about AB and not trading him and hopefully he will work his way up to be Type A Free Agent next year. If we upgraded at SS and 2B then what a D and what a pitching staff. Go M’s , come on Summer.

  • chris d

    To add- I also think Dr Z should put together one of our legitimate SPs and some other valuable pieces and see if he can work a big trade with the Brewers. Like I said above they are very, very desperate for pitching having lost CC and Sheets. They are going to have to give up some of their position players in order to have decent pitching next year. Let’s help them.

  • chris d

    Felix of course would not be part of any deal.

  • http://bleedingblueandteal.com Jon Shields

    Well, the Mariners should NOT trade Brandon Morrow. How has he not proven he can be a starting pitcher? He’s had 5 starts! With Bavasi trading Tillman away in the Bedard deal and none of our other top pitchers even close to the majors, Morrow needs to be retained. He could be a legit number 2 starter behind Felix sooner than later. Have you seen his curveball? It’s legit, and when he finds some consistency he’s going to be a force.


    courtesy of Lookout Landing.

    Trading our youth isn’t what this team needs to be doing right now. Trading Washburn, yes. Trading Bedard, sure.. if possible. Not Morrow.

    Also, if Morrow was dealt to the Brewers, it wouldn’t be for Hardy and pitching prospects. It would almost certainly be for Prince Fielder.

  • chris d

    Thx for the visuals, Jon. I have heard that he still needs to develop a third pitch- apparently not a CB or a FB but maybe a CU. I also heard he may not have the stamina to be able to go more than 110 pitches. I hope he can.

    I just know that some people are not sold on him as a SP. and I think that Dr Z will end up trading some SPs, maybe Bedard. And a possible #2 should bring back a ton.

  • http://bleedingblueandteal.com Jon Shields

    That stuff will come in time. The curveball was what people were concerned about, because he never threw it in relief. When he threw a breaker as a reliever, it was closer to a slider or a slurvey looking thing, sometimes a split. The curveball came out of nowhere and alleviated a lot of concerns. It is inconsistent, but when it’s on it’s one of the better curves in baseball.

    The stamina is only a result of him being in relief all year and being stretched out over a short period of time. Besides, 110 pitches is enough in today’s game, but he will be able to stretch beyond that with a little bit of time.

    I am not worried about Morrow one bit. I think he’s going to be the pitcher we drafted him to be.

    As far as trading Bedard goes, he’s not going to bring back anything until he proves he’s healthy. I wouldn’t expect him to be dealt until the deadline, if he can stay on the field that long.

    If anyone is getting traded it’s Washburn. RRS seems like he could be sent away too, which would be a shame, but a sad casualty of Bill Bavasi’s wake.

    Just for kicks…

  • ernier

    I agree that we should not trade Morrow. I’d trade Bedard, but that really can’t happen until next season if he proves he’s healthy. I wouldn’t mind trying to package one of our starters like Hielman or Washburn to the Cards and try and bring back Ankeil for leftfield, they’re supposedly looking for starters also. He’d be a cheap option and add some lefty pop to the lineup, plus i think he’s more suited for a coner outfield spot. It’d also be a lot of fun to watch him and Ichiro throwing guys out at home. Add Junior as the DH and put Clement at catcher and you’d have 4 lefties with some pop against right handed pitchers.

  • Slurve

    What’s wrong with slurves… But simply put if brandon could control his CB from hell then he could be an amazing starter what happened to his splitter? I heard he had a really nasty one.

  • http://bleedingblueandteal.com Jon Shields

    I didn’t like the idea of trading Putz for Ankiel as rumored before, but I like the idea of trying to get him with our other pieces.

    The Cardinals were interested in Heilman before he landed with Seattle, and they could view him as a starter or a reliever. They could also be interested in Washburn, as you suggested. I dunno if that would be enough for him though, they might want someone young instead (RRS).

    Ankiel-Gutierrez-Ichiro would almost certainly be the best defensive outfield in baseball, and the offense wouldn’t be too shabby either.

  • ernier

    I think it would take Heilman and another player, maybe Endy Chavez. I like Chavez, but he’s a 4th outfielder and replaceable. Maybe sign Joey Gathright for the 4th outfielder and pinch runner off the bench I don’t think I’d do RRS because he’s under our control for a few more years and Ankiel is a free agent after next year.

  • http://bleedingblueandteal.com Jon Shields

    Chavez doesn’t really have any value for them. The reason they’re willing to move Ankiel is because they’re busting at the seams with qualified outfielders. Besides, Chavez is a much more valuable 4th outfielder than Gathright.

    I’d too rather not move RRS, I’m just saying it might require him.

  • ernier

    Jon – that’s a good point about Chavez. What other play with Heilman do you think it would take to get Ankiel?

  • http://bleedingblueandteal.com Jon Shields

    Not really sure. They might have liked Valbuena but he’s obviously in Cleveland now. Maybe an expendable lefty reliever like Cesar Jimenez or someone else. I haven’t thought about it much. They look like they could use another starter, some more bullpen help and a second baseman.

    We could always throw Jose Lopez in a deal, expanding it from both sides. Who knows.. I can’t wait until Dr. Z gets dealing again.

  • chris d

    Jon, I really appreciate your blog and your thoughtful and non- aggressive approach. Even though you disagreed with me and why wouldn’t you since you know more than I do, you treated me respectfully. Unlike some other M’s blogs. It will keep me coming back and I am glad to see others responding as well on this particular post.

    After looking at Ankiel’s(264/337/506) stats I can see he would be comparable in LF offensively with Raul (293/358/479), although he would drop off being a right handed hitter at the Safe and I don’t know his defense but I do not it could not be worse than Raul.

  • http://bleedingblueandteal.com/ Rob T.

    ^Ankiel is a LH hitter and his defense is not very good in CF with a -6.0 UZR but if he were to move over to a COF he would probably be about average plus he might have the best throwing arm in the league. An OF of 3 cannon arms in Ankiel, Gutierrez and Ichiro will never be run on.

  • http://bleedingblueandteal.com Jon Shields

    I also heard that Ankiel’s abdominal injury slowed him down in the outfield, dragging down his overall defensive numbers, which would explain the sharp dropoff from last year.

    People that don’t use the metrics call Ankiel one of the best defensive CFs in baseball, but I think he is probably a tick below average at best. I think he’d be an above average in the corner, but he definitely has one of the best arms in the league. billjamesonline.net has him ranked third among MLB center fielders for last season.

    Like Rob said, an Ankiel acquisition would keep runners from taking the extra base for sure. Gutierrez has an absolute rifle of an arm too, and while Ichiro is slipping a bit he has a good enough reputation that he isn’t challenged much.

    @ chris d – I appreciate you coming to and contributing on the site. No matter how much our opinions differ, I can’t imagine disrespecting anyone who is part of this site’s success. Besides, it’s disagreements and debate that make us all smarter. It is much more interesting than everyone agreeing all the time!

  • http://myspace.com/tr1ckz pmbaseball7

    How about the M’s deal Heilman, Washburn and Balentien to Colorado for Huston Street and Brad Hawpe and prospects or cash. Anyone think this would be a good deal? A proven big league closer and a LH bat in LF who can also DH? That would also open up a spot in the rotation.

  • http://bleedingblueandteal.com Jon Shields

    #25 –
    I’m not sure the Rockies would do that. If you break it down, it could be Street for Heilman and Balentien. Then Hawpe + prospects/cash for Washburn?

    To make that deal work, we’d have to pay the majority of Washburn’s salary, and possibly sweeten the deal beyond that. Besides, as JK mentioned in the other thread, Hawpe’s defense is so bad that it would negate anything he did offensively. There are better/cheaper options out there beyond Hawpe, but obviously you’re a fan of his and that’s fine.

    We do need to move Wash, though.

  • http://myspace.com/tr1ckz pmbaseball7

    I thought i posted this on another site. I am not a Hawpe fan by any means. Just put the question on two threads.

  • http://myspace.com/tr1ckz pmbaseball7

    I’d rather Abreu or Dunn sign than trade for a guy like Hawpe. Or even keep what he have in left a Chavez/Balentien platoon. Maybe even Mike Morse out there in LF seeing as he never got a chance because of his injury last year ( I was at that game) i was excited to see what numbers he could put up in a full season.

  • banton

    One way or the other, its a good bet that we will have to eat most of Washburn’s salary. That is what makes him attractive to other teams; they know that they will have very little invested if we trade him. I’m sure that he will be gone soon, as they can’t afford to just bench him. We may have to offer a Washburn/RRS package to get rid of Wash, regardless of what we may get back.

  • SABR Matt

    I don’t know if you guys are aware of this..but Franklin Gutierrez took 4.13 pitches per plate apperance last year. Anyone want to take a guess at how many pitches/PA the best Mariners were taking in 2008?

    OK…big hint…lower than 4.13. :D

    Gutz is definitely a selective hitter…the lack of results so far are a matter of pitch recognition failure. If he ever learns how to lay off breaking pitches, he could suddenly be a different kind of hitter. But even if he does not, one of the things the Mariners desperately need right now are hitters who can put tough at bats on the pitchers and run pitch counts up. ichiro can’t do that. Lopez can’t do that. Beltre can’t do that. Gutierrez is better than all of those guys when it comes to making pitchers work within an AB.

    Gutierrez was also unlucky in three different ways i 2008.

    1) His HR/Fly was 6.3% compared to league average at Jacobs Field of 11.7%. He’s not going to have a HR/Fly that low even playing at Safeco.

    2) His BABIP was below his normal ability. The guy puts a firm bit of contact on the ball when he does make contact and should be posting BABIP of .320, not .299.

    3) His Despite across the board improvements in his plate discipline metrics, no corresponding improvement in his K/BB occurred. I speculate that this has more to do with bad luck on close umpiring calls than with his ability.

    I believe there is room for Gutierrez to improve quite a bit offensively, though there’s certainly no guarantee that this happens. But even if he gets no better at all as a player, as a full time center fielder, he’s a 4 to maybe even 5-win fielder (above replacement level, not above .500), so it’s not going to take much more than league average offense to make him a legit minor star.