Comments on: That is Soooo 2007 http://www.proballnw.com/12-2009/that-is-soooo-2007/ ESPN-affiliated Seattle Mariners blog Thu, 09 Feb 2012 21:34:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: FelixFanChris420 http://www.proballnw.com/12-2009/that-is-soooo-2007/comment-page-1/#comment-7111 FelixFanChris420 Sun, 03 Jan 2010 19:03:39 +0000 http://www.proballnw.com/?p=3143#comment-7111 The thing about Bonds is that he's never been PROVEN to be a steroid user, yet everyone has convicted him already, meanwhile guys like Manny and Ortiz actually test positive for a substance, basically admit to nothing (and in Ortiz case he gives the tired BS excuse of a "tainted supplement" and nobosy cares. Did Bonds take steroids? Probably. But he also deserves the same "innocent until proven guilty" treatment that everyone else does. The thing about Bonds is that he’s never been PROVEN to be a steroid user, yet everyone has convicted him already, meanwhile guys like Manny and Ortiz actually test positive for a substance, basically admit to nothing (and in Ortiz case he gives the tired BS excuse of a “tainted supplement” and nobosy cares.

Did Bonds take steroids? Probably. But he also deserves the same “innocent until proven guilty” treatment that everyone else does.

]]> By: Jon http://www.proballnw.com/12-2009/that-is-soooo-2007/comment-page-1/#comment-7103 Jon Wed, 30 Dec 2009 17:10:49 +0000 http://www.proballnw.com/?p=3143#comment-7103 That's a good link. You can see him getting bigger every year, but not enough to draw serious suspicion until 2000 when he becomes a hulk at age 35. That kind of before/after is more acceptable, but back when all these arguments were going on it was far too common to see fans point to BS 1980s/2000s comps. As far as Edgar, yeah. M's fans don't say much about it because it's painful to think Mr. "the double" would be anything but legit, but he is unfortunately a suspect. ISO peaks in his 30s and then comes to a grinding halt as he approaches 40. No natural developmental curve there. I'm with you in that I'm just glad it's over. If anything, it was just annoying having to hear about it all the time. Now, while I wouldn't defend steroid use, I think it was probably rampant enough that Steroid Era players shouldn't be blocked from the Hall. Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens were still some of the game's all time greats, and certainly of the last 20+ years. They should be acknowledged, I think. Fans will be able to discern some of the numbers and chalk it up to the era. We understand the differences that led to a different style of play in the Dead Ball Era. We get that Bob Gibson was amazing, but that he was helped out by tall mounds and an expanded strikezone during his reign. We remember how unnaturally Coors Field payed before the humidor. Etc. etc. Fans will remember the conditions of the era, so I would just like to move on without the witchhunt. It's not like you can only distribute praise among "clean" players, because those players are only perceived as clean. There is no way of knowing who actually was and who wasn't. I'll cut myself off there, because just thinking about the Steroid Era is putting me in a foul mood. Ha! Good riddance. That’s a good link. You can see him getting bigger every year, but not enough to draw serious suspicion until 2000 when he becomes a hulk at age 35. That kind of before/after is more acceptable, but back when all these arguments were going on it was far too common to see fans point to BS 1980s/2000s comps.

As far as Edgar, yeah. M’s fans don’t say much about it because it’s painful to think Mr. “the double” would be anything but legit, but he is unfortunately a suspect. ISO peaks in his 30s and then comes to a grinding halt as he approaches 40. No natural developmental curve there.

I’m with you in that I’m just glad it’s over. If anything, it was just annoying having to hear about it all the time. Now, while I wouldn’t defend steroid use, I think it was probably rampant enough that Steroid Era players shouldn’t be blocked from the Hall. Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens were still some of the game’s all time greats, and certainly of the last 20+ years. They should be acknowledged, I think. Fans will be able to discern some of the numbers and chalk it up to the era. We understand the differences that led to a different style of play in the Dead Ball Era. We get that Bob Gibson was amazing, but that he was helped out by tall mounds and an expanded strikezone during his reign. We remember how unnaturally Coors Field payed before the humidor. Etc. etc.

Fans will remember the conditions of the era, so I would just like to move on without the witchhunt. It’s not like you can only distribute praise among “clean” players, because those players are only perceived as clean. There is no way of knowing who actually was and who wasn’t.

I’ll cut myself off there, because just thinking about the Steroid Era is putting me in a foul mood. Ha! Good riddance.

]]> By: petermag http://www.proballnw.com/12-2009/that-is-soooo-2007/comment-page-1/#comment-7102 petermag Wed, 30 Dec 2009 15:15:00 +0000 http://www.proballnw.com/?p=3143#comment-7102 The difference with Bonds is you need to do a comparison of 1999 to 2001, its this time period that Canseco argues that he supposedly juiced. The problem with bonds is that his body changed dramatically during those years. Here are some pics: http://www.time.com/time/specials/2007/article/0,28804,1640086_1640085,00.html Nobody's body changes that drastically during that period of time. I hate the steroid era. I am so glad it is over. It made for boring baseball. I'd much rather go to a type of game that the Mariners intend to play this year, than watching every guy step up to the plate and try to mash it out of the park. Its comical to me when people try to defend the steroid era. Steroids without prescription are illegal. Bottom line. I dont understand how ppl can defend people breaking the law, simply because everyone else is doing it. Yes, I understand the pressure and culture that is developed. But that doesnt excuse it. Again, thank God its almost over. Im sure there will be more leaks in the future of other guys that took them. Also, I think pics of Edgar as a comparison rather than Griffey might be a better example. Griffey just looks like a fat old man. Whereas Edgar, well er um... The difference with Bonds is you need to do a comparison of 1999 to 2001, its this time period that Canseco argues that he supposedly juiced. The problem with bonds is that his body changed dramatically during those years. Here are some pics:

http://www.time.com/time/specials/2007/article/0,28804,1640086_1640085,00.html

Nobody’s body changes that drastically during that period of time. I hate the steroid era. I am so glad it is over. It made for boring baseball. I’d much rather go to a type of game that the Mariners intend to play this year, than watching every guy step up to the plate and try to mash it out of the park.

Its comical to me when people try to defend the steroid era. Steroids without prescription are illegal. Bottom line. I dont understand how ppl can defend people breaking the law, simply because everyone else is doing it. Yes, I understand the pressure and culture that is developed. But that doesnt excuse it.

Again, thank God its almost over. Im sure there will be more leaks in the future of other guys that took them. Also, I think pics of Edgar as a comparison rather than Griffey might be a better example. Griffey just looks like a fat old man. Whereas Edgar, well er um…

]]> By: dmojr http://www.proballnw.com/12-2009/that-is-soooo-2007/comment-page-1/#comment-7101 dmojr Wed, 30 Dec 2009 01:00:35 +0000 http://www.proballnw.com/?p=3143#comment-7101 LOVE the Bellingham shot! Too bad i was a baby when he played up here! LOVE the Bellingham shot! Too bad i was a baby when he played up here!

]]> By: Jon http://www.proballnw.com/12-2009/that-is-soooo-2007/comment-page-1/#comment-7100 Jon Tue, 29 Dec 2009 18:31:16 +0000 http://www.proballnw.com/?p=3143#comment-7100 Bonds was one of the greatest hitters of all time, no doubt. But the real problem with steroids is the stamina. Take a look at this chart. Griffey (presumably clean) tails off at the end of the year (natural?) while McGwire and Sosa are able to keep up the pace. http://www.flipflopflyin.com/flipflopflyball/info-1998hrchase.html Every year we have guys who are on pace for 60, 70 even 80 homers about halfway through, but they always seem sputter at the end. That's my quick take, but to be honest I've largely ignored the steroid debates over the last few years. Bonds was one of the greatest hitters of all time, no doubt. But the real problem with steroids is the stamina. Take a look at this chart. Griffey (presumably clean) tails off at the end of the year (natural?) while McGwire and Sosa are able to keep up the pace.

http://www.flipflopflyin.com/flipflopflyball/info-1998hrchase.html

Every year we have guys who are on pace for 60, 70 even 80 homers about halfway through, but they always seem sputter at the end.

That’s my quick take, but to be honest I’ve largely ignored the steroid debates over the last few years.

]]> By: PrimeTimeG http://www.proballnw.com/12-2009/that-is-soooo-2007/comment-page-1/#comment-7099 PrimeTimeG Tue, 29 Dec 2009 18:15:11 +0000 http://www.proballnw.com/?p=3143#comment-7099 My take on the steroids issue as a whole is this. Has anyone been able to prove that taking steroids actually enhances a baseball player's performance or does it merely help in the conditioning and healing processes? Muscle mass does not equal power. Look at Ted Williams. He was very thin and he hit over 500 HRs. Heck, look at Ichiro. He's a tiny guy and he can hit balls 500 feet. On the other hand you have a guy like Gabe Kapler who looks like a Greek god but has hit all of 80 HRs in 11 seasons. Steroids or not, Bonds had extraordinary talent. That's the main reason why he was so good. My take on the steroids issue as a whole is this. Has anyone been able to prove that taking steroids actually enhances a baseball player’s performance or does it merely help in the conditioning and healing processes? Muscle mass does not equal power. Look at Ted Williams. He was very thin and he hit over 500 HRs. Heck, look at Ichiro. He’s a tiny guy and he can hit balls 500 feet. On the other hand you have a guy like Gabe Kapler who looks like a Greek god but has hit all of 80 HRs in 11 seasons. Steroids or not, Bonds had extraordinary talent. That’s the main reason why he was so good.

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